Hello there. This is Dr. Casey Bradley and you’re listening to The Real P3 podcast, a podcast dedicated to the real pork producers around the world. I hope you enjoy.
It doesn’t matter what newspaper you pick up or what industry you work with. Virus is in a lot of ‘em. Right? The News. Either the Covid virus, or if you work in the pig industry, it’s PRRS here lately, at least here in the US. And we’ve been dealing with different pathogens, either bacterial or viral for years in our industry. And with the recent surge of PRRS144 and how devastating that has been here in the US for our swine producers this year, I thought it would be a great opportunity to interview Dr. Joel Flores with Cambridge Technologies. He’s gonna talk about vaccines. Dr. Flores has a lot of experience in diagnostics and vaccine development. So, I hope you enjoy.
Casey: Well, hello there, Dr. Flores. How are you doing today?
Dr. Flores: Pretty good, thank you. How about yourself?
C: Good. Would you mind telling the audience a little about yourself, if you don’t mind?
Dr.: Okay. My name is Joel Flores, I am originally from Mexico. I get my degree veterinary medicine, my certificate for the title in Mexico in 1984. I worked for the pharmaceutical industry for couple years in Mexico, and then I moved to North the country. I always worked for farm animals since 1986. I came to the United States in 1991 to take pharmaceutical education at Purdue University. I worked with the University from 1995-2000. I did my own program on Masters, doing research on [inaudible] choloric and gastric ulcers in swines. From there, I worked for Smithfield for 5 years. Then moved to Department of Agriculture in Virginia, the USDA. And I told you, come back to the farm industry, with vaccines. I work for Cambridge Technologies, the company that made autogenous vaccines for cattle and for swine.
C: Well, that’s some great background. We met through a mutual friend in the swine industry, so it’s kinda great to be here. We met at World Pork this year, and we were talking about vaccinations, and I asked you what’s goin’ on with PRRS144, and what are some of the issues we’re having and why’s it… I mean, are vaccinations not safeguarding us better.
Dr: Well, the issue is that, vaccines can have different reasons why they maybe are not working as good as we want. Some of them can be by the vaccine. Sometimes because we did not apply them correctly. I don’t think any company made vaccines to fail. [03:00] They normally do it in order to improve. But also sometimes, what happens is the agility that we are trying to protect with, doesn’t behave the way we want. They don’t read the books, and we can see that in this is for humans, like AIDS or human immunosuppression. We also see that with Ebola. It will be similar how this has affected cats and dogs, when the immune system is compromised. What happens is this virus has the capacity to down-regulate the immune system of the host they have invaded. So, they go and also then replicate in the immune cells of the host. In this case, PRRS replicates in the alveolar macrophages, the cells that protect the lungs. So, at the beginning, as soon as they get infected, the pig establish an immune response that is called the humoral immune response, that will one, identify the invasion of the PPRS, but then reveal the viral symptoms(?) of this PRRS virus by the microphage. And guess what? When the virus is eaten by the macrophage, this cell multiplies inside the cell that wants only to destroy them and promote defense. So, we have way that the virus is promoting to be self-eated, so he can replicate inside the macrophage. The macrophage is taken all the way to the lymph nodes and the lymph node is the big factory of antibodies and cells for immunity. So, guess what? He will sequester the whole factory and replicate there, too. So better than be destroyed, he’s using the immune system to multiply and that’s one of the biggest problems.
Now, in the old days, we didn’t know how to act. Today, we know that what happen is, it has some shells of protection that avoid the immune system from the [05:00] pig, identify the point that needs to be target, with cellular immune response, like are the GP-5, GP-2, GP-3 (it’s Glycoproteins, just in GPs). So now we know what we have to do and to start drive it in that direction, with the new vaccines. [inaudible-NRx?] vaccine. We are not there today. But I will say in the near future, we will be there. Nevertheless, right now we can use the prime booster situation, because inactivated vaccines really don’t do the job. With 5 live vaccines that we have today, also they don’t do the job completely. It has to be a combination of the tools, so we can have an immuno-response that will take time, but will develop immunity.
C: So, let’s talk about the Covid world. We’ve made leaps and bounds in the modification of this new vaccine that is, you know, targeting what the specific attachment molecule – the S protein, correct? Is this advancement on the human side going to be able to help us create vaccinations on the swine side and cattle side to prevent PRRS in the future? Or does it not help accelerate that for us?
Dr: Well, what happened is uh… in this case, with PRRS virus, it’s not just one disruptor. With the coronavirus, we know that it’s the spike and that it does what they are trying to use that spike. In PRRS virus, we at least know that there is proteins that has to be used for the vaccine, subunit vaccines, but then there are not like the spikes like the coronavirus. They are located within the proteins and also within the matrix of the virus. So, in order to be able to do it, we need to go to the virus, destroy it, break it and then purify it so we can have just these proteins and then put it within any kind of subunit vaccine, and in awhile we can use DNA virus, and DNA vaccines, or we can also use plasmids, but yes, it is possible to do it.
C: Well, are you talking about macrophages, you bring me back to my master’s degree, and I spent I don’t know how many hours with a microscope counting macrophages and how many sheep red blood cells they ate. So, one of the things that I focused on was passive immunity. So, how can we change that to innate and adaptive immunity in the pigs of what we fed the sows. When we’re talkin’ ‘bout macrophages, can we overregulate that innate immune system through different feed technologies that help PRRS succeed or are there, in your options, some things we can do to underregulate macrophages? Is that a better approach? How do you look at that from assimilating or, you know, down-regulating immune systems for a wean pig, in PRRS?
Dr: I would say [08:00] we don’t need to down-regulate the macrophage, because then you will end up with a pig without defenses. That’s not something we are looking for. We are trying to make more than, I think, stimulating the immune system to produce the right antibodies. When we present the right protein being used.
C: But that gets us back to the right vaccination.
Dr: Well, yes.
C: You were quite opinionated at World Pork, and I loved your thoughts on why vaccinations fail. And we talked about half-doses, single-doses, things like that. Talk us through about these decisions we’re making that saves us money in the short run but may be costing us money in the long run.
Dr: About the vaccinations?
C: Yeah, we talked about, you know, people cutting their doses in half or one dose vs two dose and things.
Dr: Yeah, what happened is now only the people believe that because the shot has to be like a 1mL and is the same that you can apply to an old sow to a piglet that weighs 120lbs. And then when they see the little one, they say, well, let’s put the half dose because they don’t need so much. But most of the time, the dose that we apply it has nothing to do with the size of the animal. What we are trying to do is get a level or bioparticles or bacterial particles that will promote an immune response. When we have a modified live virus, that means the virus is active, so we would put it inside the animal, and it will multiply. So, it doesn’t need a large quantity. When I’m talking about a large quantity, I’m talking about 103 or 104; that means thousand, in thousands, or 100,000 particles, right? For a vaccine – in this case PRRS – to be effective, you need to be like the 105. Not 100,000 particles, no more than 5 live. You want to grow with inactivated then you have to go 106 and the 1 million particles. It has nothing to [10:00] do with the size of the pig. It’s about the way to get the immune system working.
C: These production trials I’m hearing about, a lot of people are cutting doses in half or maybe only giving ‘em one dose. What is the risk then if we need to get – depending on the vaccination – 105 – 106 particles?
Dr: Ok, what’s happening is when they do sub-doses of the vaccine, we’re gonna say they are priming the animal. They vaccinate it, they give him the shot, so the immune system of the animal will recognize the enemy, and will create a little, small immune response. Maybe it won’t develop as much response that need to be done in the way of protection, but what happens is with time, that pig will see again that virus with the bacteria within the environment, and then the natural exposure will work like a booster. So, for some other systems maybe this will work because each time they immunize an animal the first time, you get memory cells that will remember the invasion. And then they will develop, when the pig is in good health, he will respond something. In 2-3 weeks, he will develop the immunity needed for infection. The sad part about PRRS is that we get a good immune response and control the invasion, it takes 2-3 months. So, if they vaccinate a little pig during lactation time, right, with half the dose, and then the pig go out to an environment where there is a lot of virus, he maybe have 2-3 weeks, so he has not enough protection to support that invasion. So, the environment will also dictate how good or bad is going to be the life of the pig.
C: So, on vaccinations, you work with autogenous vaccinations now. Kind of walk us through the advantages ‘cause I’ve always been a proponent of those, and I’ve used some to control my different enteric challenges I had in my sow herd in the past. [12:00] So, talk through the requirements, the advantages, disadvantages of autogenous vaccinations.
Dr: Autogenous vaccines have been developed because we have two different kinds of vaccines: commercial vaccines and autogenous vaccines – or custom-made vaccines. Most of the time, the big industry, they develop vaccines that can be applied for millions of animals because they are looking for something that can be applied everywhere around the world, right? So, when you have an organism that is maybe unique, doesn’t change, and is the same everywhere, that vaccine will work fantastic. One example was mycoplasma vaccine. It was a vaccine that companies used to sell billions of them around the world every year. Why, because mycoplasma doesn’t change. It’s the same. The same one that’s 40 years ago is the same today. But with other diseases, or other utilities, it’s not the same. The bacteria world, we have streptococcaceae. It’s one name, but the same family has like 32 or 35 serotypes that are different. Sadly, they don’t share protection. So, streptococcaceae is around the world, but in America we have serotype 2 that is maybe the more active. In Europe, we have number 1. So, the vaccines don’t cross. So, I will say truly it’s not something that is very practical for a company to make a licensed product that they cannot modify it. They have to have seeds there and they have to keep it and make a batch. So commercially it is not something that they are attracted to. But for a producer that is having troubles and a struggle, there is a need to solve their problem. So, the old version that one product fits all doesn’t work. So, what we do is we go to the farm; we [14:00] sample the animals at the farm; we send samples to the lab – either it can be the University or the lab in our company; and we do the isolation of the utility. We approve it and then we identify the culture, inactivate it and then we apply with adjuvant. The adjuvant is in order to promote the immune response to have an activity. We just put the medicine inactivated. It’s like if we give it a shot of water, maybe get a little abcess because we put some material there, there will be no immune response. Then we have adjuvants that are able to promote humoral immune response and cell-mediated immune response, that is what we are looking for. Neutralizing antibodies is the other ones that neutralize virus or bacteria, even toxins from infections. So that’s what we do. The advantage is that you are not putting any other utility that is not in your farm, and that is not active, so it is not going to promote diseases.
C: No, I mean, that’s great if we can control strep; that’s wonderful! But I’m gonna throw out a tough question, because currently most producers control strep with antibiotics.
Dr: Well, Mmmhmm. I agree.
C: Does that help? Or does that cause more mutations? And you know, we talk about antibiotic resistance. Are we hurting ourselves with that approach versus custom made vaccine for our strains?
Dr: Well, the sad part with that is that sometimes, like, many places it’s abused. Used to think that’s a tool, that’s ok when you have an issue. Used to think it’s just to cover lack of sanitation, good management, it’s not correct. Because like you say, we are promoting animals – in this case bacterias – more than anything that will be resistant to the antibiotics when in the [inaudible]. So, it can hurt us because sometimes symbiotic problems happen from animals to humans and also from humans to animals. So, that’s the last thing that we want to have, too many antibiotic resistant organisms around.
We wanna take this break to thank our sponsors, The Sunswine Group, NutraSign, Swine Nutrition Management and Pig Progress. But we also wanted to remind you of our new Facebook group, the Global Swine Professionals. We’re gonna be doing something fun; some live interviews, some Q&A and we just wanna hear from our audience, so that’s a great place for you to take the time, leave us a comment, tell us what you wanna hear, or volunteer to be on our show, because we’re always looking for those awesome pork producers around the world. Well, that’s all I had, so let’s get back to that appisode now.
C: So, do you feel this use of – in the US we are still allowed to use therapeutic antibiotics; when we go to Europe and things, they’re discussing taking out therapeutic antibiotics as well. Do you think a strong vaccination program will be as effective to controlling disease as therapeutic antibiotics are today?
Dr: Well, the companies in Europe, they have to take away the therapeutic use of antibiotics. But they take way the use of antibiotics as a promotable growing or feed conversion. Because what happens is when you feed continually antibiotics to an animal, you eliminate all the bugs that maybe can produce problems, so there is no waste of energy or resources from the pig to produce more meat. He is never getting sick. When you have an animal that is not on continuous antibiotics, you will have challenge all the time because our environment is full of microorganisms. They came through our nostril, our eyes, through the mouth, in the body and they are a challenge for the immune system is having to keep the whole time and it consumes some of the energy that the pig is using to grow. What happens in Europe, they use antibiotics as a therapeutic, but they are not allowed to put it in feed or water. They have to go and maybe do treatments by shots…?
C: Yeah, that’s kinda where I meant to go was like, they can’t use the feeder water still that we can for therapeutic or preventative.
Dr: We use here in America; when you have an outbreak from an organism that you didn’t have, and it’s susceptible to antibiotics, yes. The way to tackle that is right there, you know?
C: Oh yeah.
Dr: You avoid more damage. But, in the long run, the best way is to develop a strategy where you can use vaccines that will protect you the whole time, so you don’t overuse antibiotics.
C: Let’s talk about vaccinations. So, I have a herd that’s got PRRS history, mycoplasma history, strep history, let’s say we’ve got flu, we have a little e-coli every once in a while. How do I make a vaccination program to be successful in that herd? Because do I want to target all the vaccinations early in life? Do we want to stagger them? What would be your recommendation for a herd like that, that faces all that, that wants to be able to lower their antibiotic use for treatment and therapeutic needs for these different diseases? How do we make a successful program through vaccinations vs antibiotics?
Dr: Every farm is different. So, we cannot make – like a cook – recipes that will work for every farm. Right? So, what we do is we interact with the veterinarians, or we go and visit the farm. So, we see their management, and based on how they raise their animals and what sanitation program they have. Also, which medications [20:00] are they using, if they are using any, and how they apply. The second would be to do a monitoring system by [inaudible] it can be done, so we can see the dynamic of the disease – how they move in the herd. If they have a continuous presence the whole time, or they have cycles where they have influenza and PRRS and then get quiet and then come back again. Then the other thing will be to see on the sow herd, we can put one way of management and on the piglets the other one. So, we can plan the immunity from the mother we’ll protect the pig in a good way. It will help the management of pigs like that whole cycle, or it will help two sides, three sides, or just wean-to-finish. So, depends on, but yeah, it can be promoted to get a calendar and also see which one of all the disease they have really are we can says these ones grow on the tree here and who other ones are just buy ones, they just came as the host, when the party start.
C: So, you brought up a good point. It sounds like we need to do a lot more diagnostics on a regular basis. Even in healthy – presumed healthy – flows to understand these dynamics.
Dr: Well, the first thing will be, yes, to do a peripheral on the animals to see which diseases are present. And most of the time, the veterinarians already know which diseases are there and also, we can sense the system out all then, which one gets exacerbated in the fall, which one in the summer, or which in the spring. So, based on that is how you will determine your vaccinations and your program.
C: So, in your mind as a veterinarian, what are some other things besides vaccinations and antibiotics can we do to control disease that we’re not doing effectively today?
Dr: Well, the other thing that is very important, and veterinarians have to make a big [22:00] emphasis on and that is sanitation. We need to look for biosecurity. We need to look for cleanness, you know? Sometimes people think because they are animals, they can live in their barebutt, unhealthy environment, and yes, they will do everything to survive without, then maybe they can die from disease. The other thing is today we have so many substances that we can give to the animals as a supplement that will improve their performance and also their immunity. I’m talking about probiotics and non-probiotics. I don’t work with them, so I cannot give you names, but I know that there are some natural things that can be applied to the pig or to the cattle and they will bolster immunity.
C: So, one of the projects I tried to work on in my career a little bit was some of those products and looking at it, at placing them, or what I call it pulsing them, around vaccination time. So, can I – like with a moss product, that was in my master’s degree – but can I boost that innate immune system early on, right before the vaccination. So, then also, that we saw not only in that, you know, the sow and then the pigs, some T-helper cells were elevated through the sow supplementation. So, that was kinda some of the stuff I was working on, but there hasn’t been a lot of that cross-functioning between veterinarians and nutritionists to really effectively know when we can stimulate that and when should we, right? And then we can take yeast, for example, we got the beta glucans and then you got the moss, or you know the mannan oligosaccharides. They act differently. They do two different things to the immune system, and you know, people would say well, it’s just a yeast cell wall, I can feed it right? And they need to dive in further to understand that well, you may need to serve a portion of beta glucans in this herd or moss. How do we create models that the nutritionists, the immunologists, and the [24:00] veterinarians work together to really accelerate immune development and protection in these animals? Are there good models being created out there? Or what’s your opinion?
Dr: Well, I think we need to maybe interact more. The sad thing is that sometimes everyone seems to be very smart in their own corner, you know? We are not trying to play together. By the books, there’s one corner here and one corner there and they swing drops one to another. I remember seeing some editorial about somebody who says, “Oh, no, no, you don’t need to vaccinate against the [scurvy?] calculi.” Right? We have a big problems in the swine industry with this [scurvy?] calculi that most of the IRS, Munich, NATOs is because of [scurvy?] calculi. And the easiest way to control it is giving one vaccine to the mother before farrowing, 5 weeks. They say, “Oh, no, no, put this thing in the water and then the pig is not going to get sick.” I believe, you know, because there are some products you know that will change that will change the leptic upcharge, the pH, or something with in the gut that will, yeah, will help the pig to minimize the colonization, but it still is not the answer. So, I will say if we can have one tool, why not use two? You know? If one will work in their own section, but then we wouldn’t be more successful. So yes, I will say we need to really interact; this phrase that sometimes it hasn’t been completely approved by the scientific model, but it’s working, right? Because they say, “Oh, there is no statistical significance.”
C: Or that we don’t want the FDA to know, right? Because that’s an expensive process to get stuff approved, if you say that you’re changing the immune system through nutrition, so…
Dr: Well, it’s not that we are changing. What happens is we are making them more favorable to the pig. Because it’s like [26:00] with us, you know? If people doesn’t eat right things, they get prone to get more problems. Most of the disease we have is because of what we eat. If we eat way too much sugar, Type 2 Diabetes. It didn’t come free. It’s because we abuse on the sugar. Right? So, we, jeopardize our weak pancreas. The insulin doesn’t work, and guess what, you have Type 2 Diabetes. It’s not because you were lack of insulin or your pancreas was dead. It’s just because you abuse on the sugar, so the body says, “Forget it, I’m not going to keep working on this! I quit!”
C: No, I think that’s some good points. Any last-minute thoughts on your mind? On vaccinations, sanitation, diagnostics?
Dr: Mmmhmm. Mmmhmm. Well, I will say people who really do raise animals and is conscious of what they are doing. They follow these procedures, you know. They have veterinarian maybe working with them. They maybe also are doing innovation with nutrition and management. We can always for have the animals in the best place the best environment and minimize any kind of adversity. So, then I will say, to me, it’s a key, we have to work as a team. Not as just myself and like, with this silver bullet I’m gonna fix all the problems. No, it’s not like that. We have to really not just believe in things, but we have to apply what we are learning every day and move forward and step together to make things better. Because sometimes I remember when I came to the United States, people used to do continual medication on the pig to avoid mycoplasma. So, the first vaccine that came out to the market was like, ok, this is going to be the silver bullet. And so, people says, “Oh, that didn’t work!” Well, did you [28:00] apply on the right time? Did you did it correct? So sometimes, they don’t think we need to be aware of what we are doing that is making the animals not be successful.
C: Breaking down the silos, right? Teamwork.
Dr: Yes! And I mean everything. Because also, people don’t think about it, but also the buildings has to do, you know. If we have poor ventilation, hey, it’s not going to work. I don’t care how much medicine they give to the pig. Pig that has a draft of wind and cold, it’s going to get diarrhea all the time. No doubt. Can be mechanical because they are all wet or whatever, it will be having diarrhea and it don’t care how much medication you give it or probiotics or whatever. It will keep the diarrhea until you fix the wind that is going through. Without proper ventilation they will have coughing problems, you know, too much dust! So yeah, it has to do with everything!
C: Some great points. Before we go, I always let my guest turn the table and ask me a question. So, do you have any questions for me before we go?
Dr: Sure. How do you interact with your clients?
C: Well, that’s a good question. A lot of the times, I interact as I’m part of their team. It’s like, what can I add, and so many people think I’m a nutritionist. Well, I got a PhD in pork production, not from a university, but growing up in it, working in it, and, you know, I always look at it from a manager level, and a lot of people bring a veterinarian in a room and a nutritionist in the room, and the overall boss. A lot of people think that’s ex… You know, this is our SOP, this is what’s getting done, and you go spend a day with a crew, and you can tell right now, what they think’s getting done and what is actually getting done is not the same. And so, I try to look at it to say are we sure that this is really happening? Do we have training right? [30:00] And I talk through the challenges, because really, ultimately, working for some of these large feed additive companies, for instance, and nutrition companies, and like you said with the commercially available vaccines, we want one thing, one size fits all. And that’s never my approach with my clients or producers. It’s like, okay, what can you do, what can’t you control, and then, you know, if there’s a disease problem, there’s obviously nutritional strategies we can talk about, but I’m bringing the veterinarian in to say, “hey, how can we work together,” right? And a lot of times, that old adage, ‘Nutritionists / Veterinarians’… No, we don’t talk to each other, we don’t like each other, we both think we can do each other’s job sometimes, or whatever. Egos, I think, get in the way. But, you know, I’ve just learned throughout my career of when I’ve had a really good veterinarian to work with, I loved it as a nutritionist. We could accomplish a lot more. When I didn’t really have a veterinarian, or a good one, in different situations, it was very difficult to make progress. So, I try to look at it from boots on the ground, not the overall manager, but you know, the people on the ground. How can we make it easy for them? And then what’s their perspective on the challenges? What are the breakdowns in biosecurity there? The training. And then, you know, what are some… connecting them to the right people? And I did that this last week. Dr. Flores has autogenous vaccine option, they had a massive strep issue goin’ on. I’m not the veterinarian, I don’t have the diagnostics on it, but ultimately, I needed to put you in touch with them, because I think that’s… you know, working with two different strains of strep’s gonna be the best opportunity for them. But now, I step back, because now it’s the vets and your company, right, you know, considering something like that. But it goes back into me thinkin’ about, you know, [32:00] a lot of times, veterinarians can put a lot of cost in a pig, based on the idea of prevention, and a lot of times we seem to fail at prevention. I don’t think it’s the veterinarian’s fault; I think it’s a breakdown somewhere else. But as a nutritionist, we are um… we want to be the least cost, right? We have the lowest cost. And I think sometimes it’s even harder for us to dictate a price increase for some of the things that you talked about. How can we enhance that immune system at the right time? So, that’s how I work, a little bit. I don’t know everything and when I don’t, that’s why I call the experts.
Dr: That’s exactly the point, is try. We need to interact with one another. Because I remember when I worked for Smithfield. Smithfield has an awesome group of workers, you know. They were not just one guy. They were like a two-trial thing, and they didn’t come together in agreement. But also, they were always… to listen. And it was like, you know, each farm in this case, or each pig, this particular farm will give you different problems. Maybe the same bug was acting a different edge or with a different presentation. So, I remember the day when to listen to us, when we said you know, I think we have a some toxin problem from fungus. The nutritionist says ok we need something that will help us to neutralize the toxins, they are coming with the corn. They didn’t do on purpose: when they buy the corn, and came by train, so we don’t know exactly how many the moisture, the weather, how long was there, so by the time you would get it, after a toxicologist, it was a big problem. We can see sows’ problems. We can see piglet problems. It didn’t matter how many medicines I give it or shots. I won’t is gonna control because it’s not something I can do. I have to go to nutritionist and say I have this problem, so how can you help me? [34:00]
Dr: So yeah, it’s true, we need to interact and be open. We don’t know everything, and whoever says they know everything is a liar.
C: That’s what I love about being a scientist ‘cause I can learn something new every day! So…
Dr: Uh-huh. I do, I do.
Dr: But yeah, that’s what we need to do. Also, people date ourselves, you know? Not just on our decisions, but also in other forms. What else is there? Well, you know technology, we need buildings, environment, filters, immune stimulants, nutritionists, things, and yeah. I remember one time, I went out with my friends from Mexico, he was talking to me about giving oregano to pigs when they were sick, and they recover. And I was like, I can’t believe that! He was like, Yeah, we had to put in 1 or 2 lbs per ton of feed, but these piglets when they came to the nursery, they had less diarrhea problems and less respiratory problems! And then I noticed that some people here in America, they have oregano oil, and when they feel that they are getting sick, they just get some drugs or pills, and they bust their immune system. And I was like, well, you know, it’s nothing more than just taking oregano, extraction the oil, and it does! So, hey, we need to be open – everything came in bottles from the farmer’s healthy companies.
C: No, I agree. I have some crazy ideas. I can’t say it on the air, because they’ll steal my idea, but I think there’s a lot to learn, right,…
Dr. Yeah. Don’t do it!
C: …when looking at different forms of abusing the immune system, and… No, I really appreciate your time and expertise. And if somebody wanted to reach out to you to learn more about the autogenous vaccinations, how do they do that?
Dr: Well, they can go look on google and look up Cambridge Technologies. If they want, I can give my phone right now, it’s 507-666-1638. You can give me a call, and I’ll be waiting to talk to you.
C: And that’s a +1 for our international colleagues as well. And what’s you remail?
C: Well, thank you very much, Dr. Flores. As always, it’s a pleasure to learn from you and let’s stay in touch.
Dr: Ok thank you.
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